Below is a conversation between fashion journalist Alexander Fury, Polish artist Goshka Macuga and Spanish art curator-director Elvira Dyangani Ose on 29 July 2024.
Alexander Fury: How did this project originate?
Elvira Dyangani Ose: Miuccia Prada told me she had in mind for some time to bring together the work done by Miu Miu within film and visual culture. Then Miu Miu began conversations with Art Basel about becoming the Official Partner of the Public Program. She asked me if I wanted to join for the project in Paris. I said, “Of course.” If we were to celebrate the thought-provoking way Miu Miu has of addressing womanhood, these longterm conversations both with filmmakers and also with artists—what work could refer to them and provide, let’s say, a sort of project of projects. The next step was to understand who could be the artist that would work in a short time frame on both the Spring/Summer 2025 Miu Miu show and the project during Art Basel Paris. Both take place in the first half of October at Palais d’Iéna, which is home to the France’s Economic Social and Environmental Council since 1959. When Miuccia Prada mentioned Goshka, we thought: it can only be Goshka. Her aesthetic can be extraordinarily creative and inventive but simultaneously very collaborative and generous as a platform, which is a key element that we needed in order to bring together a variety of storytelling and honor the work of all these incredible directors and artists. Goshka’s capacity for research and her generosity in terms of creating a space for a collectiveness to emerge made her unique. We thought in particular of resonances with the project that she realized at the Fondazione Prada (Goshka Macuga: To The Son Of Man Who Ate The Scroll, Fondazione Prada Milano, 2016), where the top floor of the Podium featured a myriad of moments in the history of knowledge-production. Here, we consider every artistic practice, every collaboration with the filmmakers, as a possibility for a journey into knowledge-making.
Alexander Fury: How would you describe what visitors are going to experience when they go into the Palais d’Iéna for the Art Basel Paris exhibition? What will they encounter?
Goshka Macuga: Engaging with the unique space of the Palais d’Iéna offered both challenges and inspiration, especially given its historical and social significance. The architecture evokes a sense of an ancient Greek agora or theatre, a place where human interaction—between performers and audience—takes place on a personal and intimate scale. This idea of exchange was central to how I approached Tales & Tellers. Visitors won’t encounter a traditional exhibition. Instead, they will step into a vibrant and dynamic environment where art, design, performance, and cinematic storytelling converge. Imagine a space filled with 35 life-sized figures, or “custodians”, dressed in Miu Miu, positioned among specially crafted devices that display scenes from the Miu Miu Women’s Tales series and from the artistic interventions realized since 2021 for the fashion shows. The atmosphere feels like entering a surreal, energetic gathering—alive and full of motion. This installation goes beyond passive viewing. Visitors become part of the unfolding narrative as they move through the space, observing and interacting with different elements. The layout encourages both contemplation and engagement. In the main hall, live performances invite direct interaction, while areas like the parliament and lounge create a quieter space for reflection and film viewing, as well as dialogues with filmmakers. While the original works are short films, presenting them in isolation felt limiting. The goal of this project is to liberate the characters from the two-dimensional confines of video projection and bring them to life. These individual characters, once solitary figures, now become part of a larger community that extends its reach to the audience. The specially designed devices for the characters allow for diverse representations, transforming the space into a sculptural environment that also functions as a lively town square where people interact.
Elvira Dyangani Ose: That interaction is key to the project, conceived as an open platform which blurred the limits between the actors and the spectators, between a character and the story in which their narrative originates. Multiple and simultaneous perspectives on womanhood, become an array of positions from which to narrate the world, through specific contexts and geographies, historically and in the present—but also from pure fabulation, from a time without time, from a place that does not necessarily appear in the maps. It is an intergenerational proposal, and it’s going to be also collectively experienced, but at the same time will have that take on individuals. Everyday time and the time of the artistic experience will be deeply intertwined.
Goshka Macugaa: When you step into the Palais d’Iéna, there’s an inherent expectation tied to its rich history, deeply rooted in society, technology, and innovation. Our work within this space mirrors these themes. We’re exploring how individuals and groups interact, and how technology has fundamentally changed these interactions. Technological advancements haven’t just brought the medium of film to life; they have transformed how we communicate, express ourselves, and define our identities. The devices used in the exhibition—TV sets, mobile phones, iPads—are no longer just tools; they’ve become extensions of who we are, shaping our reality in profound ways.
Alexander Fury: You’ve titled the exhibition ‘Tales & Tellers’: where did that name come from, what do you want it to convey or express?
Goshka Macuga: The title ‘Tales & Tellers ’emerged from the idea that all of us—me, Elvira, the filmmakers and artists, and of course the performers—are tellers. Each participant plays a vital role in shaping the experience, contributing to the flow of narratives unfolding within the exhibition. I wanted a title that reflects the various roles and activities taking place, but one that also leaves room for personal interpretation. The beauty of the title is that it invites the audience to see themselves as tellers too, offering the possibility for them to interpret the stories in their own unique way. At its core, storytelling is fundamental to human experience.
Elvira Dyangani Ose: Also, the focus is on the relationship between all the vantage points of each narrator, custodian and tellers as the story is generated. Who are the tellers? How do pre-existing experiences shape their perception of the account at hand? For whom these stories are told and from which perspective? There are many narratives, and I think at the center of all of that, every one of us is aiming to tell something, with words, gestures, with images. There are movies that situate us at the moment in time that we, in a way or another, feel to have experienced, and movies that are basically fairy tales, fabulation of possible or utopian social or individual imaginaries. It does not aim to offer a totality though. I think is essential to understand that. It brings with it the idea of everydayness as activism. As Goshka put it, we are all tellers of some sort, and to me particularly as an exhibition maker, as a curator, as a museum director, the idea of giving space for narrative, giving people a platform for agency, which I think is what the project is doing, is beautiful. This way in which Goshka has imagined and brought together all these other elements, to work around these ideas. I’m not the curator, I’m a convener, because I think through and bring all these elements together, but they have been chosen by many others, the artists, the filmmakers, Goshka, Miuccia Prada and the team at Miu Miu, but this also includes the Miu Miu Women Tales Committee, the various studios involved like Rem Koolhaas-founded firm OMA/AMO, Michael Rock’s 2×4, and theater and opera director Fabio Cherstich. An archival project of projects.
Alexander Fury: Goshka, you mentioned truth: and your piece for the Miu Miu Spring/Summer 2025 runway show Salt Looks Like Sugar is very much connected with the idea of truth and deception.
Goshka Macuga: Ideally, we envision the exhibition Tales & Tellers and the Miu Miu runway show Salt Looks Like Sugar as one cohesive project. However, because they take place in different settings and contexts, they will inevitably be experienced as separate entities. To bridge this gap, we created a connecting element: a newspaper called ‘The Truthless Times’. This newspaper will serve as an important prop in the fashion show and will also be available for visitors at the exhibition to read and take with them. It functions as a narrative thread, guiding the audience from one event to the other. Like the exhibition, the newspaper is designed as a multi-layered publication—what you see on the surface is not necessarily what lies beneath. By scanning the QR codes within, readers can access a fascinating world of editorial content, including new commissions by Shumon Basar, Kate Crawford, Eudald Espluga, Legacy Russell, Yaiza Hernández Velázquez, and of course Elvira. The interplay of different structures and contributions is essential to both projects. While I propose the overall conceptual framework, it’s the dynamic input from collaborators that ultimately shapes the final outcome.
Alexander Fury: I think people today question much that used to be accepted as truth. It’s more difficult to convince people of realities.
Goshka Macuga: The first proposal for the scenography of the Miu Miu Spring/Summer 2025 fashion show used an analogy to Plato’s Cave, which aligns with your observation. Even when the truth is revealed, people may still refuse to accept it. Politically, for instance, some individuals reject facts because they feel these truths undermine their core values and beliefs. Instead, they create their own interpretations of events.
Alexander Fury: Truth has become this elastic thing for many people, and even then, I guess there’s the idea that history is told by the victors—that things we conceive as absolute truth maybe aren’t true, or at least are open to interpretation.
Goshka Macuga: Truth, in today’s world, has become increasingly fluid, often shaped by perspective, power, and circumstance. The saying that ‘history is told by the victors’ highlights how what we accept as truth is often a version shaped by those in power, leaving other narratives marginalized or forgotten. This idea, that truth is subjective and can be manipulated, is at the heart of both the fashion show and the exhibition. In Tales & Tellers, these themes are explored in depth through the narratives of Miu Miu Women’s Tales and the artistic interventions integrated into the show. Each filmmaker and artist brings their own perspective, challenging conventional notions of truth and offering alternative viewpoints. What emerges is a complex tapestry of stories that, when woven together, prompt the audience to question how truth is constructed, represented, and experienced. The interplay of these individual stories creates a rich dialogue about how we perceive and communicate truth. The overall scenario doesn’t just depict reality—it invites the viewer to engage with its multiple layers and complexities, acknowledging that truth, in its many forms, is always subject to interpretation.
Alexander Fury: Does the exhibition link inherently with the work you’ve created for the Miu Miu runway show, or do you see them as two distinct entities?
Goshka Macuga: Ideally, one should think of this as a unified piece, though, in reality, people won’t experience it as such. The connecting element is the newspaper, The Truthless Times, which will serve as a prop during the fashion show but will also be something visitors can engage with, read, and even take away from the exhibition. It acts as a bridge, guiding the audience from one event to the other. When we think about the fashion show and the exhibition, both are inherently collaborative, not individual projects. They involve many participants making decisions and contributions that shape the outcome. These projects couldn’t exist without that collective effort. That’s the first important point to emphasise. The second point is the interaction between structures. I’m proposing a conceptual framework, but it’s also a framework that fosters a dynamic exchange among collaborators. Beyond that, it’s crucial to consider how these fits within the broader context—the setting of the Palais d’Iéna, what’s happening in Paris for Art Basel, and broader discussions around feminism and women’s issues. Ultimately, the significance of this project goes beyond the realm of fashion or its association with a brand, there’s a deeper intellectual engagement and a realisation of ideas at play here.
Elvira Dyangani Ose: The Truthless Times plays a critical role in bringing together several realities, times and geographies all at once. As Goshka mentions it is the connection between the fashion show collaboration and the artistic proposal, that implies not only hers, this edition, but all the history of the creative exchanges over the years. The newspaper is situated in our present’s future, 2034, and deals with ideas, articles and essays from a purposeful reality, which however it is presented to us from the perspective of an acceptable neutrality—which truthfulness as you mention is open to interpretation. The methodology though is hoping to provide the reader with a critical lens, a stance, from which to read those seemingly absurd headlines and adventure yourself into the neutral content they supposed to invite you too. One cannot help but bear the question, what is this all about? Is this for real? Random curiosity or inquisitiveness one has to decide whether or not you dig into that world of verisimilitude. Truth is decisively volatile, the significance of a readership is of importance as well.
Alexander Fury: I wanted to discuss the relationship between Miu Miu and art, which is also in turn about the relationship between Miuccia Prada and art. I wondered how you both perceive this relationship, how you’ve both experienced it?
Elvira Dyangani Ose: Miu Miu I think is the most creative and most personal take on fashion of Miuccia Prada. Then art, and the relationship that artists have activated through the recent collaborations, the runway shows became half a space for art and half a space for the fashion show. Working now together with the team, I realize how fortunate I have been to be so close to her. This is one of the most creative minds of the 21st Century, and we were witness to certain decisions, and have been in conversation for other collaborations. Even in my role in the Thought Council, it was incredible to be part of certain discussions that have shaped what the Fondazione Prada is today. In very few occasions one is so close to somebody that you can say that had changed our way to see a discipline. It’s already a reality that she has an impact in the art world as well.
Goshka Macuga: This is my first experience with the fashion side of the Prada group, and it’s been incredible. If you’re fortunate enough to be invited to collaborate, you have the opportunity to realise projects that would be difficult to execute elsewhere, thanks to the support and the connections to amazing people, like 2×4, OMA/AMO, Elvira, the Thought Council, the late Germano Celant, and Fondazione Prada. It’s an environment where ideas can flourish into something truly elaborate. There are many art collectors who, unfortunately, treat artists like performers or entertainers, using their work to create a certain atmosphere or entertain guests. But I’ve never felt that way working with Fondazione Prada. Artists are taken seriously, and Miuccia Prada herself engages in meaningful dialogue with them. This kind of genuine collaboration is both rare and incredibly important. As for Miu Miu, I think its essence is about fashion that is wearable and versatile, something you can put on at any time of the day and feel comfortable in, even when going to the office. The clothes don’t make you feel out of place, unlike when I sometimes feel over-dressed for certain situations. What’s fascinating is how fashion contributes to the identity of individuals. Many of the Miu Miu Women’s Tales explore themes of identity, often touching on the restrictions people face when expressing themselves, but at the same time, through clothing, you can decode the characters’ identities and transformations. This adds an element of living performance to the experience. Additionally, Miu Miu’s archive is like a living entity in itself, with pieces from different historical periods and collections, drawing associations to different eras. It’s as if each garment carries its own story, adding another layer to the overall narrative.
Elvira Dyangani Ose: The way that times intervene in and with the work is noteworthy. What is beautiful about it is that you will experience just a portion, just a moment of it because things will change throughout whether you are one or six days, whether you’re only going to be there one hour or at what moment of the performance you engage with it during your visit. Anything else is going to be as much as mystery to you as to somebody that came five minutes later or that would go there in the last five or four hours of the show. That sends to me the lightness of it, the possibility of being in a space which is both art, fashion, life, this sense of the time. It’s a time-based piece like some of your videos also, Goshka. To think about it from that perspective is going to be really exciting.
Goshka Macuga: It’s incredibly exciting, and it feels like there’s a desire to keep working beyond the exhibition and fashion show. Once you’re immersed in it, you uncover so many different possibilities that these two events alone don’t seem enough to fully explore everything.
Elvira Dyangani Ose: I think that’s also the beauty of a good artwork—it always leaves you wanting more.
The Miu Miu ‘Tales & Tellers’ exhibition is part of Art Basel Paris’s Public Program and was staged at the Palais d’Iéna, Paris, from 16 to 20 October 2024. For more information about the exhibition, visit Miu Miu’s official website here.
